tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5291229584839566217.post485236001608380160..comments2023-03-25T01:24:19.560-07:00Comments on 134:2: Is Abortion Murder?Chrishttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07585662693875100950noreply@blogger.comBlogger10125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5291229584839566217.post-51945655827685318122011-02-26T14:55:23.920-08:002011-02-26T14:55:23.920-08:00Square brackets (like [these]) are the conventiona...<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brackets" rel="nofollow">Square brackets</a> (like [these]) are the conventional way to add clarification to a quote. They let the reader know that the words inside are not part of the quote, but are from the person doing the quoting (me in this case.) In this case I decided to define the word quicken. It is an older term and is not used much any more. It is defined by <a href="http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/quicken" rel="nofollow">Merriam-Webster </a>as: “to reach the stage of gestation at which fetal motion is felt.” This time in the pregnancy is generally about the start of the second trimester. Thus my clarifications are accurate and help to explain to a modern reader the intent of Brigham Young’s quote.<br /><br />Adding clarification in brackets is not attempting to pass off words as the prophets when they are not (that’s why they’re in brackets- to make it clear they are my words not his.) <br /><br />It is clear from this statement that Brigham Young believed that the spirit enters the body at the time the mother begins to feel the fetus moving.Chrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07585662693875100950noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5291229584839566217.post-82855985096979633912010-12-24T22:47:18.566-08:002010-12-24T22:47:18.566-08:00Hi Chris,
In the quote you posted from Brigham Yo...Hi Chris,<br /><br />In the quote you posted from Brigham Young do you know where/when/by whom the clarification on the word quickening came?<br /><br />...quickening, [the time that the mother can begin to feel the movement of the fetus or about the start of the second trimester]...<br /><br />This is the heart of the debate. If these were Brigham Young's exact words why are they in parentheticals? If they are not his exact words who put them there and is passing them off as what the prophet intended?Youngberg Househttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10129457450419571863noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5291229584839566217.post-30062709464763953732009-04-09T14:20:00.000-07:002009-04-09T14:20:00.000-07:00I guess I'm starting to see the "point" of this wh...I guess I'm starting to see the "point" of this whole liberal Mormon thing. I heard some talk recently (can't remember who or when) but it said "there is forgiveness even for abortion" and that kind of stuck with me. So that combined with the Abortion/murder thing helps me to know that yah, abortion is way bad and you're stripping another spirit brother or sister from their right to come to earth, but if it's done in ignorance, which it obviously is done, than it's more forgiveable than shooting joe shmoe who is an adult.<BR/><BR/>longest run on sentence ever? <BR/>I hope so. <BR/><BR/>i feel at peace with this posting. Also Danielle, you are cool.Brett - Rachel Bhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12073449865734997748noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5291229584839566217.post-60424768680599439062008-12-27T19:37:00.000-08:002008-12-27T19:37:00.000-08:00Hey Chris! Mwahahaha! Danielle and I together! ...Hey Chris! Mwahahaha! Danielle and I together! Hehe..I make myself laugh...<BR/><BR/>I honestly don't have a lot of data or quotes or statistics, etc. to rebut or try to change your mind...this is how I feel though. I do agree that in the eyes of the church abortion is not murder (the consequences and repentance process is different, if I am correct), and I think we as members ought to be careful to say that it is murder unless/until we hear a prophet say that as well. I DO think that abortion ought to be a state matter (as it was pre Roe v. Wade) and it shouldn't be a federal government issue. I am concerned that it appears that you hold pre born babies to a lesser standard of respect of life than those that have been born. To me a fetus is a human baby, or at least has the potential to become a human baby if we don't invervene or interefere with God's work. We don't know at which millisecond the fetus is granted full access to soul, we know from a scientific standpoint that it is alive and that it is human...do a DNA if you don't believe me (okay, that was snarky, I'm sorry).<BR/><BR/>Anyway, I'm not really good at saying what I think online, just mainly that while I don't think that abortion is murder I do think it should be illegal with the exceptions given that are in line with the church's. The church doesn't have to explicitly state that they are in favor for or against such laws for me to be in favor or opposed to those laws. Just because the church hasn't come out and said, "this law is wrong" doesn't mean that it's right either...Hunter Familyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02244885861306848292noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5291229584839566217.post-64712307883158755862008-12-21T19:50:00.000-08:002008-12-21T19:50:00.000-08:00Chris, You are a great sport to put up with all of...Chris, <BR/>You are a great sport to put up with all of my comments. I'm afraid I can get somewhat...uh...worked up when I'm debating politics (or anything, really) Although, I can see you sitting there with a big smile the more keyed up and condescending and personally attacking I get. (My husband laughs when I get that way, and it makes me so mad in the moment) Anyway, I could never be a sports fan. I'd have to be medicated.Daniellehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08373367853736211523noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5291229584839566217.post-56600253659954799512008-12-19T19:15:00.000-08:002008-12-19T19:15:00.000-08:00Thanks for the comments, Danielle. You are probabl...Thanks for the comments, Danielle. You are probably right, I was belittling the argument equating abortion with murder and should not have (I still don’t agree with it, but that is no excuse.) As to why I had to talk about abortion again, well the whole point of my blog is in my intro (it explains why I do this at all.) As for why now and why like this its in the opening paragraph of the post. Thanks for the comments. Keep ‘em comin’.Chrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11929139260452438204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5291229584839566217.post-38528738028852616912008-12-19T18:54:00.000-08:002008-12-19T18:54:00.000-08:00This comment has been removed by the author.Chrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11929139260452438204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5291229584839566217.post-52660716703705628352008-12-19T06:16:00.000-08:002008-12-19T06:16:00.000-08:00Alright, one more comment. You might be indulging...Alright, one more comment. You might be indulging me, but this is a subject I feel (yes, emotions involved) very strongly about. I have to point out what I think is a serious and saddening flaw in your reasoning (and I mean that with no sarcasm intended). I am not referring to the first half of your entry concerning when life begins. That subject has been debated for years by theologians, scientists, etc. I am referring the second half where you conclude that the church (leaders, prophet, God?) must see abortion as more allowable, and in utero life as less valuable because they allow for the three well known exceptions. To take the life of a newborn baby would be horrifying indeed, and no one would ever advocate for that. Fortunately, no one MUST ever make that decision. Pregnancy, however, is a unique situation, and if the life of one is gravely and threateningly affecting the life of the other (and this includes rape and the trauma of delivering a dead baby), a decision must be made. In other words, there is no way around it. So, I believe they allow for these exceptions, and only rarely and in consultation with God, because they must, not because they can based on some value scale. Where I think we can find common ground is on how one views and treats those that have had abortions. I have an extended relative who has had four, last time I checked. I don't stare at her with puritanically pursed lips, waiting to scream "burn the murderer!" While I find it just as horrifying to vacuumn suck out an unborn as traditionally kill another person, I know that she honestly doesn't. I know that if she would allow more light into her life, she would see this area more clearly. Well, I have finally said all I can on the subject, although I could go into terms like manslaughter and first degree and third degree murder, and if these terms are somehow a reflection on the value of the life that has been taken. But then, I would be doing that college classroom thing I got so sick of my senior year, and I am sure that three comments are overkill. Again, subject I feel strongly about.Daniellehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08373367853736211523noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5291229584839566217.post-75068883727530948282008-12-17T20:39:00.000-08:002008-12-17T20:39:00.000-08:00Chris, I have to leave another comment. I've hav...Chris,<BR/> I have to leave another comment. I've haven't been able to get off my mind (the last 20 minutes or so) why you would feel so strongly enough about abortion to make another post. It can't be that you are some kind of intellectual snob, which is what I alluded to. I remember you too well from the Ricks days for that. I sort of think it is because that recent Ensign article debunked your freedom of choice argument, and now you are have found a new avenue (is it "murder-murder" or just not very nice) to remain liberal and shocking on the subject.Daniellehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08373367853736211523noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5291229584839566217.post-32750351501403265032008-12-17T18:59:00.000-08:002008-12-17T18:59:00.000-08:00I've noticed that you like to marginalize people b...I've noticed that you like to marginalize people by stating that their points of view sound like "a sound bite" or a "bumper sticker." It is okay, in my book, for people to feel what they feel without being in love with their own thought processes behind it. I don't understand why you feel so strongly about debating this subject. All I can conclude is that you are trying to show that you are a thinker, unlike so many of us "sheep". I won't even go into what I see are some serious flaws in your reasoning. Plus, a lot of your argument is simply a semantics game. Disappointing. Very college classroom.Daniellehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08373367853736211523noreply@blogger.com